LoboStele wrote:
And regardless of whether it's reaching or not, I'm really frustrated that I've seen this EXACT suggestion made several other times, and yet everyone of you other 'top end' guys seem to either ignore it, make fun of it, or outright dismiss it. You would rather ban the piece than try to make it work? The Errata hasn't been posted yet. I know people are generally against issuing an errata now, and then changing that errata later. So, if Rob is definitely going to post at least 1 errata for this, why not take the time and do it right the first time?
Whoa there. I am against certain "errata" ideas - those that would make the card even more difficult to deal with, such as removing abilities from GOWK. I am not necessarily against changing around how SSM would work. What concerns me about this suggestion in particular, is what I believe Soresu to be. I expect Soresu Style to work on non-melee attacks, not melee. I think that was the big gripe most people had with SSM to begin with. Had it been Non-melee, people would have been happy with it as that fits the fluff. So in that light, would it make sense to have SSM be all attacks when adjacent? Obviously if the opposite is true for SS (melee attacks), then you are right, this would be a good solution, and I think it would balance Obi well enough for me. But if SS is non-melee, I am concerned that the vast difference in how they work could be annoying.
LoboStele wrote:
Everybody seems to have jumped right to the forgone conclusion of banning GOWK. Let's see if there is a way we can FIX the problem without needing a banning. If we can get contact with Rob/design team BEFORE they post the errata, might be possible to nip this in the bud without requiring a ban.
Dean and I were talking about this last night after our test game. I haven't discussed a lot of the possible other options because frankly, many of them aren't helpful, and I really needed to study the problem before I could address it adequately. Let's just take for example one of the popular solutions, dropping mettle. It changes Obi's save by a few percentage points, but overall, makes almost no difference, yet over and over again, even after posting the math behind it, people keep bringing it up. Not to mention the problem of errata taking something off of a card for the first time, the confusion that brings with it, and the new precedent of errata for game balance.
Anyways, I mention the possible problems with the "adjacent attacks" issue above, and it still takes us farther away from the source material, which won't make people happy. So there are still issues with it as well.
I've played around with a couple of options, and I think, I might have the only one that I think can solve this. Soresu Style Mastery remains all attacks, but it costs 1FP to use it. Again, this goes against the trend of the lightsaber styles being force free, but it takes away one reroll, and more importantly, makes multi-attackers have a chance against it. It also allows the future Soresu Style to remain non-melee (or melee, although I expect non as the more likely) without a FP. It let's force immune characters be a counter to Obi, and let's the Vong at least play the game. As is now, they are almost useless. It would make the Obi player, have to consider running Qui-Gon for FS to really make the Obi tank, and now you've balanced out the game somewhat. It also makes Obi more in line with the new GM Luke's Lightsaber Defense.
Another option, more in line with the adjacent idea, is to make it work like having parry and evade, where adjacent non-melee attacks can get through it. I think that would help tremendously - even though it too is slightly confusing.
And that gets us to the heart of the issue I think. For so long now, many people have been asking for jedi to have free force powers, complaining that X has parry, why not all jedi, yada yada. I've argued vehemently against it in the past, and continue to do so here. Its a bad idea, and here's the proof. The Lightsaber Styles, may be the bigger problem in general. It just isn't fair in a game that is fundamentally about damage and damage mitigation to allow the highest hp and defense figures, have free abilities to prevent all damage, and then force points to reroll in the key cases were you fail. I think the foundational problem here are all of these free abilities, that are being given to figures without affecting their other stats. Take a look at Anakin CoN for example. He gets Djem so, but it requires one save to even get it, then you still have to attack. Perhaps we could make Soresu the same, where it takes two saves of 11 to work, I don't know - also seems confusing. But when you go forward to GM Luke, it still isn't as big of a deal because he has to spend the fp to get the ability. I am not sure, but that may be the heart of the problem for me, and that's why I suggest the only option so far that I have seen that would work well enough, is make it cost a fp.
Obi is already a good figure. He has a great CE, that makes any jedi an absolute beast even against the best squads. I had trouble killing an Ashoka the other day with a San Hill squad. He needs to have some vulnerability to attacks, as targeted direct damage isn't enough. I really like that he can counter shooters well, and would like that to stay with him on any errata we have. That's why I propose the following.
If Soresu Style is a free, non-melee save 11:
Soresu Style Master (1FP) - This character takes no damage from all attacks - save of 11.
or
Simply make it non-melee, and even if SS is the same exact thing, deal with the complaints. Consider that MotF2 and Mettle make up the fluff advantages of SSM over Soresu as a fluff explanation. There isn't a great solution to this that I can see, that both covers the source material well, and keeps the game balanced. So something has to give. If Rob wants to keep the fluff, then I think we have no choice. Banning is the easiest choice Lobo, which is why I think you feel we are ignoring other options. And I don't go into that lightly at all.