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| No point-cost formula? Huh?? https://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5277 |
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| Author: | Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
Recently, Rob discussed (albeit briefly) that point costing of figs is the last thing to happen in the design process, and that prior to that they are assigned "power levels" leaving me to wonder, how can we be sure the point cost is in the correct ball park? That got me thinking about the way I designed the customs I've made and how it's different from the idea of a power level (I use a cost formula and try to determine what a new power would add to the cost in terms of points). I based my formula on what the stat cards look like, and have found it to be fairly accurate across the board. Sure there are special faction-specific adjustments, just as in other customizable point miniatures game, but overall it works pretty good. Take this for example; what would you assign its point cost: Yoda, Champion of the Force Republic 150 Hit Points 22 Defense +15 Attack 20 Damage Special Abilities Unique; Melee Attack. Triple Attack Momentum; Flurry Attack Force Powers Force 3; Force Renewal 2 Force Defense; Lightsaber Assault; Lightsaber Deflect; Master of the Force 3 Commander Effect: Non-unique followers with a Force rating may spend this character's Force points and use this character's Force powers as though they had those abilities. They still can't spend Force points more than once per turn, and can't combine this character's Force points with their own. I have a number in mind, I'm curious to see what others think. In a couple of days or so, I will post mine and explain why. |
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| Author: | Gemini1179 [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I was more stunned by his revelation that he doesn't even do most of the costing. I always figured he'd have a point value he was aiming for or whatever, but it's definitely a different thing having him design based upon an intended 'power level'. As for your fig, I'd cost him at... 82. Using CS Yoda as a base, an extra 10 HP, Tripe over Double and Momentum would add 10 points IMO, so 65. Now you've got Renewal 2, so there's another 3 or so. 68 LS Deflect is far more economical than Reflect (sorry MJJ, you just got Yoda'd.), and Assault + Momentum + Move Faster x2 = 10 square threat for 60 damage at +19 attack? Another 10 points... at least. 78 Then the CE: Here is the big one, JWM's, Padawans, Guardians, Force Adepts can use Force Defense. That is huge IMO. Could be very effective if used correctly. Yoda is still very vulerable to melee and he's Yoda so I'll stick with 82. |
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| Author: | billiv15 [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
65 |
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| Author: | Admiral Ace [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I'm going with 78 due to the "recosting", but I think even that may be low. |
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| Author: | Ruhk [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
68 |
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| Author: | Joruus Cbaoth [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
Haha, if only he were a real miniature... I had a number I was going to use as my guess (85), but I thought I'd try out a cost-generator I saw on Gleemax the other day... After I took a peek at what the program would cost him at (minus the CE), I realized I had really undershot his cost! My new guess would be somewhere around 100 
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| Author: | Darth Havok [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
72 |
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| Author: | jedispyder [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I'm thinking 69... |
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| Author: | homer_sapien [ Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
74 |
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| Author: | Olovaid [ Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I'd say 77, but anything in the range of 74-80 is also about right. Actually ignore my above guess - I misread the CE. So, reading it properly now, I'd say anywhere from 77-85, but If I needed to go with an exact number, I'd go with 84. |
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| Author: | Ugavine [ Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I was thinking low 60s', but that's a powerful CE really. I'd say 70 pts. |
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| Author: | Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I realized the Commander Effect is written awkwardly. To clarify, the followers cannot use Master of the Force 3. |
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| Author: | Gemini1179 [ Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
The CE isn't what makes him an 80 point piece IMO, it's the Assault + Momentum + move faster. He's certainly not a 60's point piece, Triple, Deflect, MotF3 and Renewal 2 see to that. His CE will be best used by JWM's who are cancelling out Lord Vader's & MJJ's LS Assault and even then, it's a lot of force points. 76-82 is where he might fall after testing. |
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| Author: | Lackey [ Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
I would cost Yoda at 68. Keep in mind the costing for characters has become more competitve in the last few sets and what cost 60 points at Champions and back would be cheaper in today's sets. |
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| Author: | SirStevee [ Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
74. 
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| Author: | Grambo [ Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
An interesting topic. For myself, I believe this is a very high-end cost figure... competitive with other high-end melee figures with powerful CEs. I would tend to agree with the costing target as being around 72-74... though admittedly I'm giving a relatively snap feedback rather than an in-depth analysis. My quick reasoning for my pricing is simple, and mimics that of many others here... 1) Powerful melee piece regardless of the CE... can shut down enemy force abilities, and can lay 60 after a 10-square move with +19s... that's a great piece. 2) Extremely powerful CE, making this unit double as a superlative commander. 3) Excellent base stats competitive with the other 50-ish costed figures without a power-CE. Compared with Loda, the CE is both a huge boon and a disadvantage (as he can't benefit from other powerful CEs). Compared with someone like Revan, his CE is equally astounding (though admittedly requires more thought in use)... the lack of Master Tactician being the biggest gap between them. Anyway, again... my value... 72-74 imho. |
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| Author: | Grand Moff Boris [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
Some interesting discussion, for sure. Anyway, I costed this idea of Yoda at 83. Then, I re-wrote the Commander Effect: Non-unique followers with a Force rating gain Lightsaber Assault and Lightsaber Deflect, and may spend this character's Force points as if they were its own. They still can't spend Force points more than once per turn, and can't combine this character's Force points with their own. Does that change the point cost for you? |
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| Author: | Grambo [ Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
Were I not taking into account also the trend for melee pieces to come down in cost in an attempt to balance them vs. shooters, that's probably about what I would have landed on as well. In other words, had this piece come out a year ago, 83ish would have been just right I'd think. I see it being slightly lower now due to the "power creep" effect (which, by the way, I am NOT a fan of... but it is what it is). My reasoning to stick with my "price" is simple... compare with Obi from CW... powerful CE (Yoda's is arguably better, but then again CEs become less valuable the more expensive the commander is)... superlative melee piece. Obi is godlike against melee (he literally shuts down some of the other premiere melee pieces and can go toe to toe with Bane)... Yoda is highly shooter-resistant. Both make their followers a great deal more fearsome. So anyway, I think mid-70 remains my feeling on this, as awesome as it would be. As stated, if we were really trying to compare with RotS-era pieces, 83 would actually be dead-on I think. |
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| Author: | swordslinger [ Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: No point-cost formula? Huh?? |
i was gonna say 80 |
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